Different Beliefs about the Devil and schizophrenia

Continuing the discussion from Bacteria, gut organisms linked to schizophrenia, depression, autism and more:

@AbAt, I thought we should continue this here, rather than under “News”.

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I believe the devil is responsible for some schizophrenia by causing demons to appear or creating situations where people hear voices and see things, or are just getting messed up in general.
That is why i believe in spiritual warfare, because God is greater than the devil and by faith in God and walking in His power you can have power over the devil.
it’s hard at times, but it does work.

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Frankly,it is not seemly to have mutual discussion around the religious beliefs in joyless thread called; “false beliefs” “delusional beliefs”

While,most of us deny that, the scientific information in the medical reference about the schizophrenia in most of cases are false facts
,thus this thread is the suitable place to discussion unusual theories,terms, conceptions ,descriptions,definitions,classification around the schizophrenia

=MOST of what was known or written in the medical books about the schizophrenia is not true,no different between a false beliefs for the schizophrenics and wrongly theoretical knowledge for the scientists,all are false knowledge whatever the personality of the believer
or the researcher

1- the “spirit and psyche +mental+intellectual” in one basket
"you forget to add the soul and self "

= In the western culture ,it is common tradition to find many names for one single thing,many definitions,descriptions and classifications for one single thing ,specially for the non-tangible things

FOR example,who is the Christ ? who is he ?
some people belief that he is the God,other belief; he is the son of God,
and other belief ;he is non of both because he is a prophet,other people deny his existence

How can you talk about the Christ “one single thing” for a people have different belief about the identity of the Christ ?

Who is the cause in these differences ?
the christian clergy NOT the public !

Sz is the same
sz is mental illness,psychotic illness, or genetic disease or social phenomenon,
or environmental phenomenon…??

the cause of sz is genetic factor, or chemical factor, psychological factor, or social /environmental factors or toxic ?

in sum,there are many differences in every thing related the schizophrenia
what is the cause of these differences ?
the scientists not the public !

when i talk about the psychological aspect of the human,i meant the thing that so -called the self,but you tell me many different names for this thing
{psyche,mental,spirit,intellectual} and add for these the soul

it is so easy to deal with this problem,if you understand my way to limitation the identity
of the thing;
1-the existential manifest of the thing “existential symptom of the thing”
2-the functional activities of the thing

for example,what is existential symptom of the psyche or self or mental or spirit…etc?
whatever the name you like,but the existential manifest is constant in his features !!

we meant,the name is not a problem,because the minute details of the existential symptom is the home port ,add for that the whole knowledgeable with the functional characteristics of the thing

for example,you say devil or hallucination or psychosis, the term used is not a problem if you have know the actual existential symptom of the thing and its activities

i want know,you understand the point or not,regardless you agree or not

I understand everything you say here.

I agree that religious beliefs cannot really be described as “unusual”. Other people on the forum have also said so. But for now, the way this forum is structured, having the discussion here is the best way to avoid it quickly getting locked.

I want to say that I have no intention of arguing about your religious beliefs, mine, or anybod else’s. Ia m interested in what other people feel and experience and how it helps or harm’s them

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(Sorry about the typos etc. Android and this platform are terrible together).

In order for me to understand your ideas better, could you answer my question about the relation between God, the Devil and Destiny?

If God is an omnipotent and omniscient creator, then everything that happens is a result of his will, including any actions of the devil. If you are possessed by demons, then that is not just the actions of the devil, but also the will of God. If God created us, having the power to create the universe in whatever way he preferred and the knowledge of everything that would happen as a result of creating things in any specific way, then in creating the universe as he did, he chose to give some people schizophrenia, cancer etc whatever. Even if bad things happen as a result of the actions of a person, or the devil, then that is result of the way God chose to create that person, their environment and all things in general that influence who they are and how thy act. All that is, is the will of God. If the devil has possessed you with demons, then that is Gods will. If the universe is really created by an omniscient and omnipotent God, then it is his choice to cause all the suffering there is, has been, and ever will be. Talking about the devil as the cause is a waste of time, like anyone else, the devil is what God choose to make him

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Right, certainly, if you are a monotheist, you are inevitably forced into believing most of what you say there. As far as I understand it, though, there is a little refinement for “free will.” However, here I am interested in @AtAb’s view.

Given your user name, I am guessing you are a Buddhist rather than a monotheistic (as I understand it Buddhists don’t believe in God at all, so they cannot believe in the Devil, but they believe in reincarnation - is that right?)

i seen the devil and heard his voice…the devil looked like a huge ape/gorilla, maybe it was my mind playing tricks on me, who can say?

Pedro, I don’t want to be rude, but so far in this thread we have been trying to discuss what people believe, rather than what people feel or experience. There is no other place where we can talk about these things calmly and as rationally as possible because there is no “Common Beliefs/Religions” forum. But if we go into talking about visions/hallucinations, the thread will inevitably get locked because it will upset other users.

So, if you don’t mind, can you talk about your system of belief/beliefs rather than experiences?

I’m not the boss here. It’s just a request.

the title of the thread is what i went by

Yes, sorry. A bit too dramatic! My fault.

you can change the title now by editing it if u like

Thank you. Done.

Some of the earliest voices I had in 1998 was that ‘You are with the Devil’, some people really think that the Devil exists. I have not heard voices from the Devil since then.

I know exactly that ,the credibility of personal religious belief plays the main role to explain to the schizophrenic, the reality {identity} of the abstruse phenomena / events that has been emitted for himself and felt them individually
=the harmonization between the content of the personal religious belief and all events which has been occurred/ located to the schizophrenic internally lead to correct identification and correct understanding to the nature of problems that he suffers from ,and help him to overcome the most psychological problems that has been created by action of internal events
(( abstruse phenomena/internal event=the symptoms so-called hallucination}}

-the content of the religious belief is the cognitive source who can helps the person to knows
the real identity for the unknown things "hallucination"that he feels,sees,hears inside
=when the sz has occurs,( during the onset stage },the person has loses the mental communication with all types of the external cognitive sources,wherever it so hard to tell
him any advice or explain any thing to him (he can listens to what you say but he has not
the ability to practice the rationality for the heard advice}

we meant,the cognitive intervention by family members or doctors to help the person during
early-first stage of sz Have no effects in most of cases,and the self-knowledge in the memory of the person has play the main role to understand and explain the abstruse events
which lead to adapt the suitable ways to deal with them behaviorally

the question
what is the content of the self-knowledge of the person ?
there are many different types of knowledge has been stored in the memory
of the person ;cultural information about the natural phenomena and all things,
medical information,historical ,social,lingual,familial,…and…and …and,and …
and …and religious information !

-all possible human knowledge can not identity,understand or explain the nature
of the inner events {the things so-called hallucination},excepting the religious knowledge !

what is the identity of the imaginary people who have the ability to produce the voice
and make inner bilateral communication with the one’s person ?
there many different questions,but the religious belief is the only source to answer
about these question correctly

the expected question
what is the right religious belief ?or what is the content of the religious belief which can
helps the person to identity and understand the nature of the problems ?

=notice that,the religious belief have negative and positive role in the same time,
in most of cases,it is turn into false beliefs{negative}, if there are something wrong in the belief itself,
or in the personal practice,or the disability to using the belief content to analyses
the inner /external observations ,or the knowing of the person with his religious belief
is weak
anyway, if there is something wrong “whatever the cause of wrong”,the religious belief
turn into delusion belief,false belief

OK, I follow what you are saying. I have a few more questions, though. You are talking about voices and personalities and how a person’s experiences are affected by their religious beliefs. What if the person does not hear voices or see hallucinations? Some people with “psychotic disorders” have a different experience. They feel that they are “receiving personal messages” via visual signs, for example. Also, many people have experiences that seem to have NO religious content at all. So, for example, for some people their unusual experiences concern messages from the CIA, or visions and experiences of aliens and alien abduction, or, a very common one, thought broadcasting and telepathy. How do those experiences fit into a religious framework like yours?

OK,you follow me ,but you do not understand the points that i meant
please, look to the point;
if you supposed that,the features of the inner existential manifest of the sz
inside the schizophrenia contain: 1,2,3,4,5,…features

Thus:if you talking about the similarity between the sz and some other phenomena,
example:person does not hears voices ,people receiving personal messages via visual signs,
people have not religious content at all,people concern messages from CIA,experiences alien,telepathy

if there are similarity between sz and these phenomena,IT MUST BE you should find the
features 1,2,3,4,5 … in these phenomena !!
the inner symptom must be the SAME from all aspects between the sz and these phenomena {complete correspondence ,complete consistency }

Above all,at first,you should have full knowledgeable with features of the inner symptoms{the existential manifest } of the new things that has been located
inside the schizophrenic

SECOND,you search about the complete correspondence between these things of SZ and
the other features of existential manifest of these phenomena that you talking about

do not give any attention to the names,terms or its definitions/description of these phenomena,but focus
your attention toward the complete correspondence

simply,someone hears the voice {SZ} ,and other one do not hears the voice
the logical conclusion: they are NOT THE SAME phenomenon !!

please,tell me every thing that you know about the hallucination,
because you can not understand our definition ,and still understand HER
by the traditional definition

I do understand you. What are are saying now is that you want to limit the definition of schizophrenia to one which suits your own theory. That way the theory does not have to account for certain phenomena. That is OK, but it has no interest for me, really, because I am here as a supporter/family member of someone who falls into your category of “non-sz.” So both in my way of thinking and yours, a theoretical discussion has no value for me.

I do note that you keep evading my questions about the relation between what you call “the Devil”, and any entity that can be called “God” (or any other name), and destiny. So it seems to me that your system of thinking about these events is either NOT very well developed, or you yourself have not learned what is necessary to understand or explain about it. I doubt the value of any system that maintains a belief in “the Devil” and his power, but apparently not in “God.” In fact, I don’t know of any such system. It would have to be very unorthodox and idiosyncratic, to say the least.

Finally, it is not clear to me why you are in this forum at all. I don’t mean you have not right to be here. I am just curious. If you don’t have schizophrenia, you are not supporting someone with schizophrenia, and you believe a lot of things are NOT schizophrenia, what do you hope to gain here?


All what you say have correct uniformity,except 2 sentence !
1-you wrote;
If the DEVIL has possessed you with DEMONS
=You should say “if the devil has possessed you”
without saying “with demons”,because the
devil and demons are two names for one single thing
-devil is the common name,while demons is the name of entity
{ kind-type- sex}
-if you say;human kind,you can say demons kind !

2-you wrote;
talking about the devil as a cause is waste of time,like anyone else,
the question;
talking about the devil as a cause of what is ?

3-the devil is what God choose to MAKE HIM
the devil is what God choose to exclude,shut out and reject HIM
because the will of God give him the ability to choose the good or bad
action ,and he chooses the bad ONLY whatever the price !

while the human being can choose the good or bad behavior on