Nootropics as sarcosine subs?

Medications
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I have been taking sarcosine and it’s expensive. On a whim, I bought piracetam off of powdercity at the same time I bought sarcosine. It was supposed to do similar things: increase memory, increase concentration, increase focus, etc…

Piracetam was like ten bucks and it came in like a heavily stuffed parcel, very good deal for the price. It does help me concentrate, get stuff done, and remember what I was talking about.

I also heard about optimind, and noopept, and some other ones.

I just wanted to ask, since people are finding sarcosine very expensive to try.

@SzAdmin: has there been research looking for similarities across sarcosine and other (cheaper) nootropics? Do other nootropics work “along the same pathways” as sarcosine? Can something like piracetam be substituted for sarcosine? Thank you!!

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There is very limited research in humans into the effectiveness of the nootropics like piracetam (and none in helping with mental illness) - as you can see here on http://pubmed.org

Here is a search - a total of 159 studies, but few with humans, and no long term tests so we don’t know what the effect will be longer term.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=piracetam

Sarcosine seems to be a little more expensive (from about $13 to $60) but with a reasonable number of placebo-controlled, double blind studies in schizophrenia - and 80 studies come up when you do a search on "sarcosine and schizophrenia - as you can see here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=sarcosine+schizophrenia

So - the nootropics like piracetam are unproven. But it seems interesting and I’m very interested in hearing your opinion and please keep us informed on how it goes for you over the coming months.

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I see, there is generally no support for piracetam as a cognitive enhancer in the science world, whereas sarcosine has plenty of concrete studies behind it.

I will stick to sarcosine, in this case. There is, however, a noticeable effect in myself on piracetam, where I am willing to spend extra (on top of buying sarcosine) to continue using piracetam. I think I will just use sarcosine at 4 scoops and piracetam at 2 or 3 scoops a day.

It is anecdotal, but maybe piracetam exacerbates the effects of sarcosine? I had this unusual experience lately, which is out of character for me:

I have zero attention span. Sarcosine got me engrossed into downloading games for my kindle fire. So anyways, I downloaded this competitive, online pool game that keeps your win percentage and stats as part of your viewable profile.

I started playing, not just one game (as I normally would), but for an hour! A whole hour! This is amazing news. I attributed it to sarcosine.

Then, I noticed that there was a weird trend in my stats whenever I sat down to play pool with some piracetam in my tea versus nothing or sarcosine in my tea…my win percentage increased to about 40% (up from like 30). It would fluctuate, going up and down by about 5%, and it usually coincided with whether or not I had put piracetam in my tea before gameplay.

Being a former fan of gaming, I tend to play when I’m in the right “mental mood.” Mainly, caffeinated and hyperalert. I’d kind of wait to play the pool game until I was in these moods, so I started avoiding cannabis and instead waited until I was alert towards midday. I also gravitated towards piracetam and sarcosine in my tea just before playing…then I just went on piracetam (running low on sarcosine).
My win ratio is still 38% in this online game. I’ve only played for this week, but I’ve jumped up about 13 levels in that time.

I know it’s anecdotal, or could just be the sarcosine instead, but I just wanted to put that online pool stats tracking method out there…
If only we could get more online pool players to keep tracks of their stats and then start doing a controlled, double blind study on piracetam! Not only does the stats have a win ratio (which would rely on your opponent’s skills, too), it also has “balls potted in a row” which is a good measure of how accurate your aim is.

Anyways, thank you for replying, I am reading through the search term piracetam on the pubmed site!

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A while back there was a discussion about a new smartphone app that has research behind it in terms of helping people with schizophrenia improve their memories. You might try this app (its a general cognitive training app for everyone) and try it when you’re on no supplements (for a week) then try it when you’re sarcosine for a week, and then try it when you’re on a nootropic for a week - and see if there is any difference in your performance.

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There is a lot of research currently investigating the potential of a new nootropic compound NSI-189 in the treatment of MDD. However, the fact that it is currently accepted as demonstrating the ability to increase nuerogenesis (brain growth) in the Hippocampus by up to 20% suggests it could be extremely beneficial for Sz and many other mental illnesses.

It is widely accepted that most mental illnesses (BPD, Bi-Polar, ADHD, Sz etc.) are associated with reduced active matter in the Hippocampus and other areas of the brain responsible for executive function.

A Phase 1B, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled, multiple-dose escalation study of NSI-189 phosphate, a neurogenic compound, in depressed patients.

The trouble with these kinds of compounds, despite the current significant positive evidence, is that there just has not been enough human study completed to determine the potential of any long term negative effects. And this isn’t exclusive to research only compounds. Most of the nootropics are poorly understood and in the very early stages of human research.
I have tested the following nootropics:

Aniracitam
Piracetam
Phenylpiracetam

and the eurogics:

Modafinil
CRL-40,940 (Flmodafinil or Fluromodafinil)

They can take a few weeks to reach saturation point, especially Aniracetam (in my experience), so it can be very hard to discern placebo from real world improvements without carrying out a controlled experiment.

Nonetheless, there is a lot of momentum on this front and if we just keep our finger on the pulse and don’t get too impulsive, I feel there will be a lot of breakthroughs that we ought to benefit from during our lifetimes.

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Here are another couple of potential ones for you to look into:

Noopept stimulates the expression of NGF and BDNF in rat hippocampus.

Selank Administration Affects the Expression of Some Genes Involved in GABAergic Neurotransmission.

Selank
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/4chat4/semax_longterm_side_effects/d1jileh

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Thank you so much! The reddit link was my personal favorite, being both linked to a folder of numerous articles on semax, as well as fun and entertaining to read.

When you say “have tested” does that mean in your body, in a lab, or both? If in the lab, do you mean “saturation” as in peak effects?

I have taken piracetam since March 31st (11 days) and Sarcosine since mid-February.
Doses: 4 mg of sarcosine
Piracetam: 3-5 little scoops a day, not sure of the mg of the little scoop. Usually 3 scoops per day, but I’ve experimented with 5. However, at 5 scoops I stayed up late, so I dropped it down to an average of 3 scoops a day.

Thank you for the informational links! :smiley:

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I mean I have consumed them personally and measured various metrics throughout every day I took them. I lost a lot of my notes, as they were saved on my work computer (where I spent most of my day) and I just got up and left and never returned one day spontaneously haha

By saturation, I refer to the point after which the effects of the compound stabilise and become more linear in nature. Typically, it is common practice to slowly increase the dosage as the body approaches a saturation point. Think of a sponge slowly absorbing water. You can’t really measure the rate at which the sponge drips until it is at capacity.

Usually a therapeutic range is in mind as a target. I’m no expert on pharmacokinetics, but the manifestations of these basic principles are observable consistently throughout my logs.

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My pleasure, HQuinn! Just bare in mind that the author of that Reddit thread likely has some degree of self-interest in people being openminded towards Semax - at least in retrospect; I’m not sure if he did at the time. I believe he now sells the stuff. Which is why I linked other articles. Though, I agree, the Reddit thread is more down to earth in nature :slight_smile:

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Update: I’m also trying alpha-GPC and I just got my phenylpiracetam in the mail.
@Polymorphed --> do you think phenylpiracetam or piracetam works better? I noticed that phenylpiracetam came in a teeny tiny tub, whereas piracetam came in a thick package that will take me the next year to get through…is one better than the other?

My stack as of today:
4 scoops of sarcosine
2 scoops of piracetam in the morning
about to take 2 tiny scoops of phenylpiracetam right now

I’ve noticed I stopped smoking cannabis as frequently and I started playing more video games, applying to more jobs, and doing a lot more cleaning, this could be just sarcosine or the effects of sarcosine and the rest of racetam family.

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Hey mate - don’t take piracetam and phenylpiracetam at the same time. They are the same, more or less. The phenyl molecule simply makes the piracetam significantly more bioavailable, so a whole lot less is needed to yield the same result.

My use of phenylpiracetam was one of scholarly interest more so than a choice I’d advise for ongoing supplemental support. Not enough long term research data yet. As such, I’d advise you treat it much the same. Feel free to experiment, but don’t go taking it every single day for a year or anything.

Also, please note that when you are working with higher concentrations that mean “tiny” scoops, the potential for dose disparity is significantly increased, which makes isolating its effects tricky due to the lack of consistency that is possible. You really need scales that are accurate to 0.0001mg (which I have).

I used to be one to promote cannabis and I think for some people in some circumstances it can prove mostly beneficial. However, when there is mental illness present, even if it’s not Sz, I cannot personally recommend it anymore without my cheeks flushing with guilt. See if you can get off of it, mate. I hate recommending benzos, but if you can trust yourself to use them in a way that won’t lead to dependency, they can really help you get through the first couple of weeks of the ■■■■■■■■ withdrawals.

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That’s a supplement I have nothing bad to say about. It will help potentiate the racetams and improve cognitive metrics.

I was looking for my logs, but all the digital ones were lost when I spontaneously quit my job hahaha anyway, I recall that what worked best for me on phenylpiracetam was 100mg at waking and 100mg at lunch. Studies suggest it has a half-life of around 3 hours, but I personally felt that it took longer to notice it wearing off. It also caused sleep delay-onset when I experimented with a third dose or pushed the second later into the afternoon.

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Man, I am lucky you told me this because I was tinkering with the idea of it being a neuroprotective agent that needed to be taken every day for like a year!! Ending risky self-experimentation now, lol

About the scoops–I try to use the scoop that came with the product, but I learned not all scoops come in the same size, so I’m figuring out how to save the right scoop for the right powder.

About cannabis, I have other things (ptsd chronic anxiety and bipolar with a tendency towards mania) that gets regulated pretty well through cannabis ingestion. I don’t like it for the sz, though, as it does make me socially nervous. Usually, I mellow out at home and watch episodes of funny sitcoms while I’m high and then the rest of the day I’m totally non-irritable and non-hypomanic.
I am trying to get off it, though, as it is a legal black hole in California and also it’s expensive!

Thanks for you advice, I am acting on it!
:smiley:

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HQuinn it doesn’t appear that you inferred any sense of judgement from me, which is great! I can be very in-your-face or “blunt” at times, though usually completely unintentionally. Cannabis got me through some tough times and quite possibly even saved my life - if not from myself then definitely from my wife lol. On the other hand when you have ADHD affecting your motivation already, you do NOT need cannabis to help you procrastinate lol

The funny thing is, at the height of my cannabis use I was working for the government and was a reliable and high performing member of society. I think it is a substance that can be great for one person and horrible for the next - as well as great and horrible for the same person, depending on the variables.

It is also hypothesised that regardless of whether or not one has dormant SZ genes, cannabis will trigger ego dissolution / psychosis eventually in almost anyone. You might quit and it might still happen 10 years later. (I don’t know if I actually believe that, but I’ve heard it on the medical grapevine quite a lot.) That reads like fear-mongering, but what I really want to achieve is that people become aware that it’s not just ALL good and on these forums I feel obliged to maintain a “it’s not worth it” stance overall, particularly given the likelihood that it was the catalyst that triggered my own psychosis and the danger it presents to persons with SZ.

Regarding phenylpiracetam - it’s probably one of the safest nootropics other than plain piracetam and I didn’t mean to scare you! But I’m glad I caught your attention at least because you would not want to double the two up. I can’t quite figure out all of the mechanisms of phenylpiracetam (and neither can the actual qualified lab-junkies), but what I can tell you from experience is that it has a stimulatory effect not that dissimilar to Ritalin, so it is obviously doing something that works its way around the adrenal pathways. That’s the main reason I’d view it as experimental. Just remember that when it comes to Google, you can find the answer you WANT quite easily and nootropics are a fad at the moment - meaning, there are a lot of money hungry people out there wanting you to think it is completely safe.

Scoops to me are a dangerous proposition, especially when you start looking at 100mg and below. Volume is dependent on too many variables - which I’m guessing you already know given your assertion regarding one scoop not being the same as another.

I hope I didn’t completely put you off!

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yea, i have this problem, which humorously extends to mere subjects! Don’t mention Jungian archetypes, philosophy, or theoretical physics concepts to me unless you want me to have an ego dissolution followed by a very painful mental glitch, lol.

I think sz are really prone to ego dissolution. I hadn’t put my finger on the right word for it, but you just named it.

So weird, I wonder why that happens in sz? Why are our egos so fragile and easily dissolved?

No, you didn’t put me off. I still need to play online pool and the racetam family helps me concentrate and focus. I just won’t be taking it every day anymore at full doses for prolonged periods of time.
Thank you!!

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(sorry to intrude on the conversation) I also thought about this, if we are to believe in Freuds theory of the ego, sure it is a dissolution.

@HQuinn google jung psychosis and you’ll eventually find an article about his own psychosis, apparently he mentions it on his “Red Book”

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no this conversation is open to all forum!!!

I didn’t know Jung was a psychotic, too. How especially painful. To be sz and to be the one to develop the whole ego archetype thing must have been a special hell for him. :confused:

I will google it right now! Wish me luck, I’ll skip all the actual philosophy parts so that I don’t end up in mental glitch landia

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I can try and find that article for you… wait a sec

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thanks so much, @Minnii!! reading it now :smiley:

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