[quote=“notmoses, post:21, topic:24322”]
38 years[/quote]
Do you see a resolution to it all?
Just seems like a very long time to be searching.
AA is free and it has been proven to work. I too, have seen hundreds of people with 10, 20, or 25 years of sobriety.
Your interpretations (sort of) intrigue me. It would be easy to interpret them as something like “righteously negative and closed minded.” But, of course, I don’t really know. And I think that might not be a bad point of view to consider about your own interpretations, considering how much is appears to be the case that parts of your mind look to argue with almost everything others assert.
Figure this, though. If one really knows what’s going on (because one observes rather than comes from belief) at any given moment (which is all that’s actually possible), one will understand that searching just is what is, and that there’s no inherent desperation in it.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” – Herbert Spencer
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Congrats on all of the sobriety here. It’s not easy. If it works for you, wonderful. In contrast, let go of what no longer serves you.
I’m going on 2 yrs sober. I see dually diagnosed cases as a different animal.
Delusions and 4th, 5th and 8th steps have no affinity for each other and can be dangerous to the afflicted.
Then there is the trust issue.
If you have ever sparred with any type of paranoia you know how hard it can be to open up to a complete stranger, let alone another addict.
AA helped me sober up but confused me about spirituality.
I know this is not the case for all, just my story.
It always felt very plastic and canned to me. Like attending the same lecture over and over and over. The depth that I seek just isn’t there for me.
Today I have no desire to use, if that desire comes back, I’ll go back to a meeting.
There seems to be enough intellect here to pen a book for the dually diagnosed.
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& yet the facts/reality is that i have explored & searched many many areas. i immersed myself in 12 step for 8 years overall - went through all the steps, applied it all on a daily basis etc.
i am at odds & conflicted with a lot of humanity. i do find a great lack of depth, meaning & coherence in a lot of what i observe & have looked into. That’s me - Nor would i call it ignorance.
What is it ii i am missing? We live in an Age of mass Ego, Ignorance, Delusion, Stupidity & Fear.
Unless you go beyond the mind & into genuine Beingness.
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Isn’t there a lack of insight & understanding here as well - aren’t you a bipolar on a schizophrenia forum.
I spent some time in the AA program. I liked the unconditional acceptance I found in my group. I had trouble with the God thing - or, “higher power” as you like to call it. I have a hard time believing that any higher power cares about my personal problems.
Searching is a behaviour of the mind, it is not “what is”. You can look with a genuine acceptance, or you can look with a searching mind. The first is a part of being, the second is a part of a mind-driven behaviour, with a goal lying beyond it. The mind is a great tool, but it is best not to confuse it with deeper meaning.
Whether searching has an underlying desperation, it can certainly act as a trigger. Too much searching and not finding can make desperation arise, if the mind is attaching so much meaning to the search. There is a relationship.
The ‘resolution’ was to get sober and get my life back. Which I’ve done. I’ve got a wonderful wife, an awesome kid, a career, and I’m back to being a valued member of my community. Which is exactly what I wanted.
If I had wanted religion I would have joined a church.
Gotta tell you flat out that what you are looking for is not what the other 99% of people in 12 Step programs are looking for. One of the big reasons they shrug at the changes you want.
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Which is why, beyond getting basic sobriety, it doesn’t really work for me, nor resonate, & why i’m Not a member & haven’t been for over 6 years. They’re all best left to it.
99.9% of all of humanity isn’t looking for what i’m looking for - Most are busy worshipping Mammon anyway - Which is all fair enough, i can accept that & let it go. i can’t change the World/System - best i can do is allow it all to Be as it is, & focus on my own path - which is a main practise - doesn’t mean i agree with the World/mass opinion though, i don’t, i think the entire sh*t house is an open air lunatic Asylum, populated by maniacs. If almost the entire population choose to see all that as fine & normal, then that’s fine by me. It’s just all business as usual on nut house Earth.
You suffer from an unusual degree of spiritual obsession and also a very strong compulsion to share it with others. I used to suffer from a similar obsession/compulsion, except you could swap out spirituality with aliens. You sure you’re as healthy and functional as you think you are?
10-96
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You are probably right.
i’ve also studied the Alien question for decades - for over 35 years in fact - read many books & studied masses of material. i don’t generally discuss that area as people are generally even more closed minded to that question than they are with mental health. There are other areas that i’ve studied at depth as well. This just happens to be a mental health forum, so think it’s best to stick to discussion on that subject.
i’ve lived a highly independent life in the community, on my own for 13 years, with zero support from the mental health system & very minimal support from others. i’ve come from severe schizophrenia/dual diagnosis, & very difficult circumstances to 13 years of sobriety & 10 years of stability from last major episode. So i don’t think i’m doing too badly?
Am i well? i’ve made a huge amount of progress from where i’ve come from, but there are a number of challenges & difficulties that i find intractable to more fully resolve. i could list & go into it all, but the thing is that others have a very hard time understanding it all, & beyond suggestions, projection & opinions i’ve heard a million times before, no solution to it all is ever forthcoming.
There is the saying that social acceptability doesn’t equal recovery, & that “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” Probably best Not to go there…
& that’s spiritual? It’s fair enough, but still.
Let’s go there anyhow. You’re the one posting about stigma, something I don’t worry about that much.
I’ve noticed in most communities that 90% of the volunteer work is done by 10% of the community. Everything falls apart without that 10%. AA has allowed me to go from being someone who made work for that 10% to someone who is privileged to work with them. More importantly to me, I’ve been accepted by them, and quite a number are aware of my health issues and don’t give a flying fig. Which is awesome.
Don’t really know, don’t really care. I am enjoying this particular magic trick too much to peek behind the magician’s cape. My participation in AA’s ‘spiritual’ program seems to be of more concern to you than it is to me. I just do those things I need to and my day more often than not turns out to be an enjoyable one. Why complicate something that works so well?
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[quote=“ozymandias, post:37, topic:24322”]Let’s go there anyhow. You’re the one posting about stigma, something I don’t worry about that much.
I’ve noticed in most communities that 90% of the volunteer work is done by 10% of the community. Everything falls apart without that 10%. AA has allowed me to go from being someone who made work for that 10% to someone who is privileged to work with them. More importantly to me, I’ve been accepted by them, and quite a number are aware of my health issues and don’t give a flying fig. Which is awesome.[/quote]
Great. Do you know what i’ve done in my life? What i do? Who i see? Beyond a very basic overview you know nothing about me. There are many many ways of being of service & leading a full & productive life. i don’t want the life you have thanks. AA/12 step doesn’t have any kind of a monopoly on service to others, same as it doesn’t have any kind of a monopoly on recovery or spirituality.
The concern i have with stigma & discrimination is in a general sense concerning the mental health community as a whole. No one in my life thinks there is anything much wrong with me - they think i’m saner than most people - so it’s Not an issue on that level for me either.
The issue outlined in the OP with Ron i do in part agree with, in the dominance of seeing all non-ordinary/unusual experiences as brain diseases/mental illnesses & needing treatment with drugs for life. i do feel i could have & could be far better helped to more fully resolve certain issues if there was more in the way of genuine validation & understanding of certain areas. But ultimately it’s my stuff to deal with, the solution isn’t going to come from the mental health system, nor general society.
Fair enough - the vast majority of people are the same as you don’t care either. Is it OK with you if some people do care about such areas?
Will reiterate that i don’t have any problem with 12 step if that’s what people choose to follow. Horses for courses.