Contrariness & Continuing (Unnecessary) Suffering

One of the regularly observed traits of poorly managed sz, sza, szt, psychotic bipolar and psychotic disorders in general is contrariness… which may be defined as acting upon (usually unconscious, but habituated) impulse to argue with others, regardless of whether one is right or wrong… or even knows what they’re talking about.

Those who are paranoid are typically contrary. They also tend to wonder why they are regularly shunned, isolated and rejected by others, even including their family members. My observation (strongly supported by professional colleagues) is that most psychotic spectrum pts cannot connect the causal dots between their argumentative natures and those rejections.

Mental health professionals assert this because it is obvious that many psychotic pts are so hurt by the critical judgments they impose upon themselves that they cannot stand it and must find a way to put the cause of their misery outside themselves… and onto others.

I did this myself for years. But when I got into the CBTs and MBCTs, I was able to see that I was in fact the cause of all that isolation and rejection. No one did it to me intentionally. (Not even my adoptive mother; she was just doing what she had been conditioned to do by her mother: judge others mercilessly.)

When I began to observe to notice to recognize to acknowledge to accept to own that I was the cause of my own isolation and rejection, I began to be able to change my (stinking) thinking, (hurt) feelings, and (contrary) behavior. I had to be self-aware and self-responsible.

Many sz pts believe that their medication is going to fix them. And that kneejerk hostility to others who disagree with their fantasies mean to hurt them.

I had to give up those fantasies a decade ago or risk sinking right back into the muck that sent me to the ICU after suicide attempts… twice.

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Good insightful and professionally written advice. I used to argue to the point to where people just gave up…and wouldn’t talk to me…just like you said.

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Same here. Gave it up for lent one year. Mostly didn’t take it back. And observed to notice to recognize to acknowledge to accept to own when I did.

It took me a long time to let go of this… to let things just flow through… it’s been hard and sometimes I still catch myself doing it…

For ages, no war was too small… everything under the sun was worth an argument. I think my mind became more flexible when I was finally learning how to pick my battles…

It seemed too… when I could let go of my need to argue… studying and retention become a bit easier. I guess there was more room in my head… or I was finally ready to listen and learn…

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Must we not be contrary?

How to not be contrary to human beings, i don’t get it.

this can only be true here :slight_smile:

After a day to think about this further, it dawned on me that any functional assessment of behavior of this sort would pretty likely point back to having their sense of reality so relentlessly invalidated by others in very early life that it became “normalized.” And the contrary person expects it from pretty much everyone he or she encounters.

While I do understand that that sense of reality may have been severely dysfunctional and distorted, when one adds to that the verbal abuse and/or dismissal of one’s self-esteem, it might result in the sort of constant “pushing back” seen so often among paranoid delusional personalities.

This helps me to have some empathy and compassion for others who had what was probably an even more severe and disturbing experience with caregivers, siblings or playmates during early life than I had.

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Indeed, I was mocked as a little kid for being smart. I could read and knew about dinosaurs (I was obsessed) and understood evolution (a little bit disturbing for a five year old to know what sex is all about).

I was yelled at for being “insane” once my onset happened, and I was bullied for being “an atheist and a jew” at Catholic schools. Aye yup. Science is my religion, but that is how I phrase my stance on religion to people who cannot tolerate atheism.

A little bit I might add- I read Allport’s The Nature of Prejudice. Very old, very good, very foundational book and very pertinent to people with severe mental illness who are aware of how society thinks of them. Chapter nine is my favorite and I have it bookmarked with an appointment card from the shrink. It is titled “Traits Due to Victimization” in it is the passage “Fighting Back: Militancy”. It reads

“As yet we have scarcely mentioned the simple possibility that minority group members will refuse to “take it.” They may fight back whenever they can. Psychologically this is the simplest response of all. “He who conceives himself hated by another,” wrote Spinoza, “and believes that he has given him no cause for hatred, will hate that other in return.” In psychoanalytic parlance, frustration breeds aggression.”

Then he rambles about the Japanese and “Negroes” (wow that is outdated, this is from 1954) and Jews and even Catholics. He said they realize “the futility of violence” and “join political or actionist organizations pledged to improve the existing situation.”

This is so me.

I do push back as hard as I can, yet I think it works. Here I am learning psychology, even developing my own thesis on a contemporary stigma intervention. I do fight back because I learned as a boy that giving hell produces results. The thing is, I graduated from petty physical fighting and intimidation. I do that on the side for fitness and sleep habits. There was a time when I had to fight, literally beat people (who I saw as less than “people”; they were animals). I decided to become an animal just to ■■■■ over the whole pecking order. Just wedged my damn foot in the door. It’s been stuck there. It wont move.

What I see is a call to action. We are a minority group AND a subordinate minority group. I believe that suffering is what makes us human. We suffer the most, and yet because of the bizarre manner in which we suffer, we are deemed less-than-human.

I can and will fight this ■■■■.

Kay-ryst. I hadn’t read it in 35 years. You’re exactly right here.

(There is, btw for those who may be interested, a synoptic .pdf at http://faculty.washington.edu/caporaso/courses/203/readings/allport_Nature_of_prejudice.pdf)

In psychoanalytic parlance, frustration breeds aggression.” Indeed.

This is my son to a T!!!
When he is on medication, he is not like this however.
What will ever turn him around??

Medication + psychotherapy is the best formula we have at this time.

No-I mean what can anyone do to convince him of the fact?

I don’t think the desire to argue is particularly specific to those with psychosis. It occurs with those with non psychotic disorders as well as those without a mental illness. I just think some people are more argumentative than others regardless of diagnostic state.

A social anxiety forum I go on has a sub forum specifically for contentious threads and the arguing/debate that goes on there quite often makes what happens here look mild by comparison.

I am diagnosed with a paranoid disorder but am not shunned by family members, My paranoia and social anxiety was triggered by negative reactions to my physical and social awkwardness . I was ostracised and rejected first and then became avoidant and paranoid.
The avoidance and fearful paranoia coupled with poor social interaction skills./social skills is the reason I am isolated and have no friends. It is certainly not because I am aggressive and confrontational.
I don’t think you can make generalisations about a group of people with a certain diagnosis There are no doubt paranoiacs similar to me and ones that fit the picture you describe.
Certainly with the DSM/ICD there is no recognition of the avoidant and fearful paranoiac which is a major flaw with the diagnosis.

Whilst you are quite knowledgeable I would not make the mistake of thinking all others pale in comparison and that you are the font of all wisdom.
I consider you an intellectual equal,nothing more nothing less.

Did I say it was?

Yes. We call them “neurotics.”

But if they argue their cases on the basis of ideas that cannot be proven because they are just ideas, and not accurate descriptions of what is (vs. what is not), what, then, what are they?

You might want to re-read what your wrote to the end of that post. And look up the definition or “paranoia” as well as the diagnostic criteria for PPD. Because they do not support your assertions.

You can consider yourself whatever you want. (Just as I can consider myself to be Rocky or Bullwinkle; there’s no law against it.)

But just as long as I continued to ignore the following quote from Herbert Spencer, so did I suffer the consequences:

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation.

I know the definition of paranoia and have looked at the diagnostic criteria many times. We will have to disagree on this one.

Have it your way. (But see if it works.)

Exactly what I listed. Usually in group therapy environments, so that peers who “get on board” are observed. I don’t know of anything else. (And I have been working with contrarian psych pts for 28 years.)

It seems that he is going to have to come to that conclusion on his own. I have had a few doctors, case managers, and others, tell me that my son is a difficult case. There have a been a few people a long the way that have made inroads with him,but the relationships break up for a lot of different reasons…38 years old-and still refuses meds…

Agreed. But that is what Motivational Interviewing is for. But if he doesn’t encounter those who know how to use it…

Well, you know where I live!
Thank you for that–I will make a trip to the library and see if I can find more info on that.
If I cant find anyone-then Ill have to educate myself.
Could help!