I have just read a short book on it and a couple of websites about it. I wanted to clear up my thoughts about it and so would welcome the discussion.
An interesting point I found was that some scientists rigged an EEG and computer up and measured movements of a choice of which paddle a person chooses on the screen. They found that they could calculate which paddle a person would choose before the person had consciously decided which one they would choose to themselves.
There was a time lapse between what the person did and the thought process of what they would choose. This indicates that the free will of choice is already decided before the conscious mind made a decision to do it.
This further implies that free will is an illusion.
If you could set up a computer and follow a person around then the computer could predict exactly what you would choose to do before you even decided to do it. You would soon get annoyed and think that you were being controlled. It is the illusion of free will that tricks you into thinking that you have free will and allows you to feel ‘free’.
Accepting you do not have free will and that the causes of the universe that precede ultimately affect our future actions permits us to lessen our judgements of others.
I know the illusion of free will is counterintuitive, but the science proves it as described by the experiment I described.
It is as if the well of our consciousness and our choices come from deep within and are predetermined whether we know it or not.
To become aware of the universe as ever in the present and not looking to the future or the past is one way to get around it, as to see yourself as the universe rather than separate to it battered by predetermined waves and set on a journey that you cannot control.
To me the notion of karma is undermined if you do not have free will as it is not you deciding what you do, so how can you suffer for the error of your ways? Are we all just vessels experiencing life that are consequences of actions beyond our control under the illusion of free will that our mind has created to deal with the physical realities of this world of the senses?
I’m just grateful you didn’t introduce quantum mechanics into the debate. As far as I’m concerned the debate on determinism and free will was settled since the Enlightenment at least. Already Epicurus, a staunch materialist, got himself into a right pickle by arguing that free will could be explained as some form of ‘atomic swerving’ taking place in our mind.
What are thoughts but neurons firing in the brain? Are they not creating or influencing consciousness which is a mere witness to our neurons firing, be they random or not?
I can use smoking to explain I got no free will. I like to quit but obviously it’s not in my control. But it doesn’t stop me having good feelings over my situation.
This thread reminds me of having a conscience. What if we didn’t have a conscience. We would be doing anything. Then we wouldn’t feel bad if we did something terrible.
To keep you from doing wrong I guess. You still can ignore your conscience, so you still have a free will, but your conscience controls you at the same time.
The idea that people act according to their conscience is obliterated by the notion that free will doesn’t exist. People will do what they do and are not guided by their conscience. Guilt and remorse are part of regret for doing what is out of your control.
The illusion of free will leads you to believe that your thoughts are self determined when in fact they are not, as the science dictates.
The idea that people can do anything is dictated by whatever fires in the brain as a result of what happened before and will go on as it will is what I am suggesting. It means that people aren’t really responsible for their actions.
Locking people up removes them from society to stop them doing it again, but blame is hard to justify when people have no free will.
I don’t uderstand what you are saying, but it seems like a good post. What do you think about having a conscience and having free will at the same time. You might have already explained that.
So we just function from birth to death. Makes me think we are programmed by instinct. I heard of the global subconscious. Maybe we are striving towards a greater goal without having the power doing anything about it cause we don’t have free will. Like animals, who is going to judge the lion for his kill. He has no free will.
For example, you have a thought of reading a book. The thought came into your mind. You decided you wanted to read and then you made a choice to get up and pick up the book.
Where did the idea to read come from? It sprang from your unconsciousness, then came into fruition in your mind and then you ‘chose’ to get up and get that book. I propose that the idea to read isn’t your free will. It is predetermined and every choice you make from that point is merely the illusion of free will.
It is not a choice, you just think it is. The thought came first, then the action came. Because you have a conscience that you think guides you then you appear to think that I will read a moral book, but that supposed free will choice is already made before you did it.
It is just an illusion that you think that conscience guides you when the science in my original post tells us that it is already decided what you will do from the well of your unconsciousness because the thought comes first.
You can change your mind furthering the illusion that you have free will, but that change in thought came from you first, as is predetermined. If you regress an idea, the regression is predetermined that you will.
It is hard to grasp, but the universe has decided your actions and the idea that you have free will is an illusion.
It depends. If they can show that true randomness exists in the universe then I believe in free will. But if there is nothing that is truly random then that would probably mean determinism and thus free will is an illusion…
For a while the black whole information paradox suggested that the information radiated from a black hole was truly random, but I read an article that it might not be random. I am not aware of anything else in the Universe that is truly random. That article partially crushed my hope for free will.
That is possible! That we are mere witnesses to our life plan.
You could choose to be completely fixed in your life plan, to partake in it and live as though you have free will. Most people do. Most people are moral anyway. I don’t see the idea of the illusion of free will taking away my morality, but it is not an excuse to be immoral for me if that is the worry.
People do as they do and knowing that ideas come as a result of the universe allows me not to hate as much.
The weird thing is that thinking you are deterministic seems to be mostly disempowering. Free will is a very nice delusion to have. I think Winnie the Pooh would just scratch his head at this and then go get a nice jar of honey.
Things are more complicated than I can understand. In my heritage the concept of free will was central to the religious and political conflict that went on for centuries. I personally dont know what is true about anything really but at heart im a pragmatist and whats true is basically if its effect is good. If you have people who dont believe in free will and the world takes on an oppressive and totalitarian quality then that sucks. If you believe in free will and freedom to make choices, life is better for it then its good. The truth is out of the reach of my idle mind, but i know what we believe matters.
Free will is a religious and moral principle, but in the way it is used here is just the opposite of determinism. Are we free to make choices, or is it an illusion and we have no control, that kind of thing. I’m not really that into the specifics of specific philosophers. I’ve read about them, but I have no memory for most of the details.
