I don’t want to discuss A.A. or other 12-Step programs. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. I’ll make it my practice to ignore any such comments from now on, so say what ever you like.
Are you able to see the completely opposing logic between…
The former puts the onus on others. The latter on oneself. One is blame. One is taking responsibility for one’s own mental operations.
Look. I have psychotic bipolar. My head will take off into the stratosphere of delusional projections in a hot second. So I do my best to try to stay in observation of that so I can notice it, recognize it, acknowledge it, accept it and own it. THEN I can usually do something realistic (and functional) about it.
Might be helpful. (Might even be really helpful.)
Incorrect. One is acceptance. You will say whatever you like and that’s just fine with me. I accept you - absolutely. What I do is my business, that is, if folks here want to banter about A.A., then se la ve. Forgive my french misspellings. In both cases, I am taking responsibility for my own attitude.
But I won’t hesitate to tell the truth about 12-Step programs where it is appropriate to do so. And the time is coming when they will all be exposed. I don’t mean to sound hostile. I’ve just had so much negative experience with A.A, that I cannot help but sound biased. Still, it isn’t fair to incorrectly characterize me because of my reports. Its easy to kill the messenger. Please don’t do it to me.
Tell whose truth? Or, more accurately, whose experience? Most of us here had good ones in AA, NA, CA, CoDA, ACA, etc. So… whose “truth” is it?
People (including a few on this forum) have been trying to kill my messenger for decades. (My parents very much included.) (Hint, hint.) I haven’t died yet.
Can anyone really “kill” you with words? Can “sticks and stones” really break your bones? Or is that the paranoid delusional thinking that IS the hallmark of this gawd-awful f-----g disease?
I did, and did I get into a snootful of trouble right away. Well, I guess trouble has a way of finding me, or me of finding it. It seems like “Trouble” is my middle name. Anyway, thanks for saying hi.
No.
Yes.
And the reason I say so is because I did exactly that for decades before I…
Came to My Senses.
Utter b------t, of course, but the method does work over time. It’s currently one of the best psychotherapeutic tools for paranoid delusional thinking in the professipnal arsenal at this time.
MBBT – An Introduction to Mind-Body Bridging & the I-System – New Harbinger Publications, Inc
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If you play nicely for the most part others here will play nicely too.
It is now my policy to make no further comments about 12-Step recovery programs anywhere on this website. I suggest those who are interested in the truth about these things do what I did: Launch a full external investigation of A.A. and related programs.
Those are my very last words on the subject, you all have my word on that.
that’s funny, a snootful of trouble. hang back for a bit, get a feel for the vibe if the forum for a while. we’re all on the same side here.
Oh I will. I just had to get out of a little snare. But I’m out now - no worries.
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My only question of the effectiveness of these treatments in Gulf War vets is the incredibly high suicide rate in that population. If these modalities were truly effective, one would expect to see a commensurate drop in that rate. But since we don’t, I have my doubts. I still hold to other forms of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, such as EMDR for the treatment of PTSD, and no Cognitive Behavioral approach has shown marked results in the treatment of the schizophrenias excepting to improve the quality of life. There is, however, a lot to be said for improving the quality of life for a person, like myself, with schizophrenia.
I’m with Keith Laws on CBT for psychosis.
ok, thats ok with me 
I think CBT is excellent for psychotic disorders when it utilizes precise language - something I’m practicing to learn all the time.
i dont want to say anything about AA but my dad was an alcoholic and he died last year from liver failure, i sometimes wonder what would happen if he got help, i still dont see him as an alcoholic though, he’s just my dad.
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I worked with veterans IN and around the VAHS for several years. The problem was never the therapies. The problem was 1) the availability thereof, 2) the quality of the “therapists” administering these therapies, and 3) (most significantly, btw) the truly wretched bureaucratic and (un-) “professional” environment in the psych departments at the VA’s core hospitals (though much less so at their satellite clinics). The VA is a revolving door for new – as well as older, often “burned out” – psychotherapists (the latter very often having failed in private practice owing to their own unprocessed issues). I don’t want to go way down this road, but I am with those (mostly former VA employees and contractors) who opin that the VAHS’s mental health setup needs to be dismantled and privatized in a modified Medicare setup… as “bad” at that may be. Because the VA is actually worse.
EMDR is not technically a CBT, it is somatic experiencing therapy. As with any PT, in the hands of those who really know how to use it, it will work about 80% of the time, though it has a very rapid “law of diminishing returns.” Further, EMDR provides no skills training, which is essentially why it is not a CBT.
Er, uhhh, well. If the QofL is improved…?
The mindfulness-based CBT’s, however, are starting to show some degree of efficacy for the bipolar & sz spectrum. And my guess would be that for those who are adequately medicated to the point of relative emotional stability, the somatic experiencing psychotherapies that are just now coming into popular use (but won’t hit the VA for gawd knows how long) will also produce results for some – though not “all” – sz pts.
The mindfulness-based CBTs:
DBT – http://behavioraltech.org/resources/whatisdbt.cfm
MBSR – Welcome to the Mindful Living Blog
ACT – ACT | Association for Contextual Behavioral Science
MBBT – An Introduction to Mind-Body Bridging & the I-System – New Harbinger Publications, Inc
10 StEP – Pair A Docks: The 10 StEPs of Emotion Processing
the even newer somatic psychotherapies like…
SEPT – Somatic experiencing - Wikipedia
SMPT – Sensorimotor psychotherapy - Wikipedia
Now, that is interesting, and I want to thank you for your most thoughtful post. You have helped educate me some more, and I need that. I understand that at least at one point there were more soldiers committing suicide than actually dying in combat during two concurrent wars. I honestly believe that effective therapies are in existence that could alleviate the problem, but as you say, there are larger, systemic problems that interfere.
I’m not a professional psychologist - I’ve only glossed over the books as a lay scholar does, so the distinction about EMDR is an interesting one to me. I have two diagnoses: schizoaffective disorder, and PTSD from repeated family and institutional traumas. I’m currently undergoing REBT with a competent fellow named Chad at our local mental health facility, and I have every reason to believe it will bring me to the next level.
I respect your work with the vets. I joined the Army in 1984, but was discharged within three months with an honorable medical discharge due to an injury to my left knee that pre-existed my service. I’ve always regretted not being able to finish my tour of duty, but I was always willing to do so. Your work with troubled vets shows me something. I just want to thank you for your efforts, regardless of the outcome.
i dont think i can learn all of that 
i wish i could but its too much, i need something slow and steady in order to take things in,
i did 2 years studying social care including psychology and also a year of counselling and i am still finding it all very hard to remember,
idk how some people can retain all of that information without there head exploding (no offense) i must be very stupid, my brain is just wired differently but some people do have stronger psyches than me ‘most people actually’ but thats ok lol ‘i will still plod along’ haha
purposefully oblivious haha